Rome 2.09 No God Can Stop a Hungry Man

[baleanoptera]

To lay all the cards on the table – I’m not sure what I think of this episode. I loved the Pullo, Vorenus and Mark Antony parts – but the Octavian plot…um, well it bored me.

But to take the love part first (and that is the biggest part I swear!):



I loved the whole Vorenus dreams of Niobe, all while being the only "true Roman" left in Egypt. It was so heartwrenching and good, and I went all weepy when I saw Niobe again. (I miss her! I’ve missed her all season!) There was also something true and just about Vorenus, the traditional, stoic Roman, upholding the Roman way of life.

I adored all his scenes with Caesarion, especially when he was talking about Caesarion’s father. Not only was it a touching tribute to friendship, but I liked how the calmer Vorenus was back. The one we haven’t seen that much of since season one.

And I loved how his relationship with Mark Antony has changed from one of independence of Antony as a way to feed his family, to one where he is Antony’s trusted officer sent on "delicate assignments". I also felt that Vorenus has started acting as, or perhaps is representing, Antony’s conscience. Perhaps just as Pullo is Octavian’s common touch and empathy? At any rate it’s fascinating that both Pullo and Vorenus are serving with men that are such opposites of themselves, except when it comes to their darker sides. Vorenus and Mark Antony share a penance for self destruction, whereas Pullo and Octavian both possess a savage ruthlessness when it comes to killing. Does any one else see this or is this me on the lost track of over-speculation?

As for Mark Antony ,Cleopatra really does bring out the worst in him. This isn’t the first time Antony has done something stupid – he did after all have a dwarf dressed up as Cato and made two female slaves fight each other while he watched. But the hunting of the deer was particularly unsettling. He felt to me more like a man trying to escape himself and his position, than a man in love. All his talk about how the people would always love him just felt a little disillusioned and sad. How the mighty have fallen.

It must also have been particularly chilling for Mark Antony to hear Vorenus say that he recognised the symptoms from himself. After all Mark Antony has seen Vorenus in the pit of despair complete with rotting heads under the table. Comparison to that is probably not calming.

I also loved Pullo as chief of the Aventine, talking to the people and calming them down.I actually liked the Pullo and Gaia story, although that doesn't mean I like Gaia. I don't - in fact I dislike her rather much - but her relationshop with Pullo was well handled. I didn’t find it unnatural or sudden at all, in fact I was rather expecting it. Pullo doesn’t like being alone – and Gaia has more than signalled that she was available. I think what sold their relationship for me was how different it was from Pullo and Eirene’s marriage. He talked to Gaia in a way he would never have talked to Eirene – calling her a "cold hearted bitch" and so forth. Eirene was always the princess, then one his voice went soft for. The only time he sounded soft around Gaia was when she was dying, and if he hadn’t sounded concerned and comforting then I would have thought him deranged and not my Pullo.

As for Memmio - that just shows that you should always kill your enemies. Keeping them alive, even as an example will always lead to trouble. Every "Evil Overlord list" will tell you that. ;D That said: how did Memmio manage to walk after that many years in a cage?


Then the Octavian part:

I didn’t realise I was bored until the Octavian/Livia sex scene. Then, amidst all the slapping and panting, I kept thinking: what is the point of this? Not in the "OMG! I’m disturbed! What is the point of showing this!?", but more "Hmm… is there a point to this? Wonder if I can just skip it and make myself a cup of tea." Now I see part of the point – Octavian has control issues, so he gets release through kinky sex. There is a certain logic to that, but it just struck me as dull characterisation.
(and also a rather gratuitous parallel to the Antony and Cleopatra sex scene up against the pillar. And I’m not touching the whole theme of women controlling their powerful men through sex that was going on. Including even Atia who no longer was having sex, and therefore had lost all power. )

There has also been a trend the last episodes of people around Octavian vocally expressing what Octavian is thinking. In this episode it was Livia with her: "you are sending them away to start a war etc" As a storytelling device I guess this is fine, but it doesn’t give credence to Octavian’s intelligence when everybody around him is always guessing his next move. In fact it took Cleopatra three minutes in a drug induced haze to grasp Octavian’s motives. This just makes Octavian look common and dull, and miles from the sharp boy he used to be. In fact I got the feeling that Octavian won more because Antony and Cleopatra were too busy doing their Sid & Nancy routine, than political competence. I just find that a little sad because it diminishes Octavian as an antagonist/protagonist.

But all in all: YAY ROME! And I cannot believe that the next episode is the last. I've seen the preview and it fills me with dread. And what will I watch after Rome!? Well, possibly Friday Night Lights - but wha! I will miss my beloved sword and sandal epic.

ETA: Also any thoughts on the episode title? Who does it refer to? What does it mean? I guess it has something to do with desire and/or revenge? I obsess about titles, I know...

Comments

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I didn’t realise I was bored until the Octavian/Livia sex scene. Then, amidst all the slapping and panting, I kept thinking: what is the point of this? Not in the "OMG! I’m disturbed! What is the point of showing this!?", but more "Hmm… is there a point to this? Wonder if I can just skip it and make myself a cup of tea."

It could be just me, but I am having far too many "sex with violence" scenes.. I am not that worried because for me "Rome" is great anyways, but when I see one very violent sex scene I feel disturbed, but when I see too many of them it gets to be a bit tiring. :D Oh, bring me back Agrippa and Octavia! And isn't their little girl so pretty? She is definitely Agrippa's..

Oh, I liked the title though - It was refering to so many things, from the obvious famine , to Vorenus's hunger for Niobe , Atia's for Antony, Caesarion's for his father.. And even Gaia's for Pullo..

[baleanoptera.livejournal.com]

but when I see too many of them it gets to be a bit tiring. :D

Hee! I think that is it actually - there were just too many violent sex scenes in that episode, so what ever shock value they might have had was lost on me.

Oh, bring me back Agrippa and Octavia! And isn't their little girl so pretty? She is definitely Agrippa's..

Hear, hear! And I agree - the girl is definitely his. Takes after both her parents with lovely blond hair.
And did you see Agrippa's reaction when Octavian told his sister he was sending her to Egypt? His face is pretty blank, but he nearly slams his goblet down on the tray. So someone was upset by the thought of sending Octavia to the dangers of Egypt and to her husband. Which made me grin and be all shippy.

And I like you explanation of the title. It makes a lot of sense to me.

[nutmeg3.livejournal.com]

<< Vorenus and Mark Antony share a penance for self destruction, whereas Pullo and Octavian both possess a savage ruthlessness when it comes to killing. Does any one else see this or is this me on the lost track of over-speculation? >>

I hadn't thought about this (because I tend not to analyze the show, just react emotionally), but I think it's a brilliant insight. I can't believe how much I'm going to miss this show once it's gone.

[baleanoptera.livejournal.com]

I'm going to miss it like crazy. There is always the possibility of re-watch, but that just isn't the same thing. *sob*

As for the parallels between Pullo, Vorenus, Octavian and Mark Antony queenofthorns had a theory that I LOVED further down in the comments. How there are also parallels between Vorenus and Octavian, and Octavian is a lot like Vorenus expect he doesn't feel the guilt etc.

Not that QOT theory and mine are mutually exclusive or anything. ;) Oh, I love this show!

[wildtiger7.livejournal.com]

I also felt that Vorenus has started acting as, or perhaps is representing, Antony’s conscience.

I think that Vorenus is the only conscience Antony will allow near him. The fact that no one can talk to Antony (except Vorenus and Posca) without Cleopatra's permission is telling; Antony wouldn't have let that happen if he didn't want it so.

Vorenus and Mark Antony share a penance for self destruction, whereas Pullo and Octavian both possess a savage ruthlessness when it comes to killing. Does any one else see this or is this me on the lost track of over-speculation?

I totally can see this. Vorenus and Marc Antony both would rather not deal with the world the way it actually is. They do so in different ways, but it ultimately results in self-destructive behavior.

But the hunting of the deer was particularly unsettling. He felt to me more like a man trying to escape himself and his position, than a man in love.

I mentioned to queenofthorns that I think Antony didn't just give the arrow to Cleopatra to put through the man dressed up as a deer's neck, but also through his own neck as well. Except I think I was more articulate the first time.

[baleanoptera.livejournal.com]

Vorenus and Marc Antony both would rather not deal with the world the way it actually is.

Yes, and they are not to great with handling attacks of a personal nature. If you offend their person, like calling them Helen of Troy etc, they get a bit annoyed. ;) They also have anger issues - Mark Antony with his (repeated) strangling of Octavian and Vorenus with his made rages against his family.

Except I think I was more articulate the first time.

Hee, perhaps so but I got the point and I think its a very good one. :)

I think that Vorenus is the only conscience Antony will allow near him.

Just yes to this! Which is why it must hurt so bad when Vorenus tells him he has a sickness and that he recognizes the symptoms.

[the-grynne.livejournal.com]

self-destruction

Thinking again about this, you're absolutely right. Although my initial reading of that scene was that it refered to their guilt - Antony over his perceived momentary cowardice when he abandoned Caesar as he was dying, and Vorenus over Niobe's death.

[baleanoptera.livejournal.com]

I think both readings could be correct. ;) I think guilt over Caesar has been gnawing away at Mark Antony (and Vorenus, but not to the same degree) all season. In many ways it seems to me like Mark Antony has tried to soothe his feeling of guilt by being like Caesar - honouring the legacy of Caesar so to speak. (Where Cleopatra comes into that I'm not even going to speculate. ;D)

And on a completely different note: Hooray for Deadwood icon! I miss my "#¤%&%#¤¤ show. ;p

[reginaspina.livejournal.com]

Pullo and Vorenus are serving with men that are such opposites of themselves, except when it comes to their darker sides. Vorenus and Mark Antony share a penance for self destruction, whereas Pullo and Octavian both possess a savage ruthlessness when it comes to killing.

You know, I almost take this a different way - Pullo and Vorenus are each serving with the OTHER. Octavian is Vorenus without the conscience and the ability to feel guilt - he's cold, intelligent, a great planner (and in that one episode with the proscriptions, we even got the direct parallel of Vorenus ordering the murders while not getting his hands dirty, while Octavian held back from Philippi.) And Antony is Pullo without the loyalty and the capacity for friendship (IRL, Antony was horribly, horribly disloyal and sold out lots of people for advantage).

I really loved how much SOFTER Octavian is with Pullo - it's like he's kind of that little boy again that I quite loved instead of the cold ruthless man he is now. (Also, I'm reading a biography of Augustus, and I have some fabulous Livia stories to share - including some about eggs and birds :P)

[baleanoptera.livejournal.com]

I almost take this a different way - Pullo and Vorenus are each serving with the OTHER.

Oooo! I like this! Especially the Vorenus and Octavian parallels. With that in mind the Vorenus and Mark Antony scenes in the last episode becomes even more poignant don't they?

I love how Rome makes parallels like this.

I really loved how much SOFTER Octavian is with Pullo -

Oh absolutely. And I loved how Octavian sits next to him on the bench and talks about how they will have an adventure - just like old times. And how that moment manages to be sweet and downright scary all at the same time.

And on a sidenote I loved how it was the mention of Caesarion that made Pullo volunteer for Egypt. Before that he seemed a little hesitant, but the mention of the boy tipped the scales. Oh..I'm so worried for the next episode. It's going to break my heart isn't it.

I'm reading a biography of Augustus, and I have some fabulous Livia stories to share - including some about eggs and birds :P)

HEE! I hope you'll share some of them, because I'd love to hear.

[reginaspina.livejournal.com]

And how that moment manages to be sweet and downright scary all at the same time.


I know! Plus, how Pullo is not thinking about this "adventure" at all but about how he can possibly save his son, Caesarion... (I saw people writing that they think Pullo was in agreement that Caesarion had to die - I totally did not see this!)

[baleanoptera.livejournal.com]

I saw people writing that they think Pullo was in agreement that Caesarion had to die - I totally did not see this!)

What!? No,no. I'm with you - he is going to try to save him. Otherwise it makes no sense. He is all hesitant and evasive before Caesarion is mentioned, but when he hears the boys name he signs up. So obviously the mention of Caesarion tips the scales somehow, and I doubt very much it's the thought of killing the boy that's the driving force there.

Ahh Poor Pullo. Just because he can decapitate people with a shield he gets accused of all kinds of nasty stuff. Hee. ;)