The currently best thing about working at a museum that is always closed on Mondays, is that I can watch and re-watch Rome as much as I like. Hee.
However much I like the other characters the main draw for me is the Vorenus and Pullo story. The last few episodes have been heart wrenching as far as they are concerned, but they have also been building up to a confrontation and in this episode it did happen.
I found the way they built up to the fight very interesting. It wasn’t one huge revelation that did it, but the trickling of small ones. The first being the disagreement in front of Memmio. Now I can see Vorenus’ point about Pullo not disagreeing with him in public. It is always better and wiser to keep collected front.
That said – I do not agree about Vorenus’ reasons for being angry at Pullo. He expects Pullo to fall in line and unquestionably follow his orders. But they are not in the Legion any more – Vorenus is not the officer and Pullo not the legionnaire. They are self proclaimed brothers, and brothers are equals.
That seems clear to Pullo, but I’m not so sure it’s clear to Vorenus. Maybe because Vorenus wants to sink into his misery, but maybe also because Pullo has always been his inferior on rank and station – and for Vorenus to consider Pullo his equal doesn’t come easy.
The final blow being of course Vorenus lashing out against everything Pullo tells him, including oaths and confessions of brotherly love. That Pullo didn’t hit him sooner, or threw the first punch was impressive. (Personally I wouldn’t be so well behaved in a similar situation. ;P)
But it also shows very cleary something very evident in this episode; how much Pullo has changed. The events running up to and in the arena altered him, and season two Pullo is a much quieter and calmer man than he was in season one. The ironic thing is that this is very evident to the viewer, but since he is drowned in grief it is perhaps not so evident to Vorenus. So when Pullo acts like the voice of reason it goes against everything Vorenus has been used to. This is after all Titus Pullo – who stole the cart of Gold, who worked as a hired killer for the mob and who used to sleep dead drunk on the Vorenii stairs.
As for the fight it self, I had been wilfully spoiled it, so I expected it. What I didn’t expect was how hard it was to watch – how painful to see these two best friends literary at each others throats. And the scene with Vorenus crying on the floor just about killed me. I felt truly sorry for Pullo yes, but my heart broke for Vorenus. Especially if seen in contrast to the Vorenus of season one; the man who was always so proper and well presented, so in control - and now he is sobbing uncontrollably on the floor. It was simply heart wrenching.
This was also the first time this season that I actually felt sad for Atia. There were two scenes that did it – the first being her sitting on the bed with a blank stare, and the second was shen she was crying and drinking in the bath.
This is Atia! Who was filled with life and snappy comments, and now there was nothing - it was as if all life was drained from her. When Jocasta was being annoying I expected a sharp Atia-reply, but instead she mumble something vaguely snobbish and left. So she might say her son is dead and that she has no son, but I feel the loss of Octavian is breaking her. No matter how horrid Atia can be there was never any doubt that she loved her children.
I felt there was a certain parallel between her and Vorenus in that they both deny the people close to them (a son or a brother), and that decision is destroying them.
A few assorted thoughts:
I loved the sneaky Cicero in this episode. I did not like him much in season one, but in S2 he has been wonderful.
I also liked Agrippa very much. He did look like a younger, more fighting version of Sam Gamgee - but then again Sam has always been my favorite hobbit. I just really like how he entered the Julii household all proud an soldiery, and then he took one look at Octavia and became a stuttering young man with a crush. Hee. I think that appealed to my inner romantic.
And yet - she will end up marrying Marc Antony, so all will not end well.
When Pullo was told that Antony had asked for Vorenus especially my blood ran cold. I do not trust Antony at all, and considering Antony’s treatment of Vorenus in "Son of Hades" this is doubled in Vorenus’ case.
Thankfully after all this heartbreak they chose to end the episode with Pullo riding to find his brother. (For he was riding towards Vorenus right? Not the children? I’m a little confused)
However much I like the other characters the main draw for me is the Vorenus and Pullo story. The last few episodes have been heart wrenching as far as they are concerned, but they have also been building up to a confrontation and in this episode it did happen.
I found the way they built up to the fight very interesting. It wasn’t one huge revelation that did it, but the trickling of small ones. The first being the disagreement in front of Memmio. Now I can see Vorenus’ point about Pullo not disagreeing with him in public. It is always better and wiser to keep collected front.
That said – I do not agree about Vorenus’ reasons for being angry at Pullo. He expects Pullo to fall in line and unquestionably follow his orders. But they are not in the Legion any more – Vorenus is not the officer and Pullo not the legionnaire. They are self proclaimed brothers, and brothers are equals.
That seems clear to Pullo, but I’m not so sure it’s clear to Vorenus. Maybe because Vorenus wants to sink into his misery, but maybe also because Pullo has always been his inferior on rank and station – and for Vorenus to consider Pullo his equal doesn’t come easy.
The final blow being of course Vorenus lashing out against everything Pullo tells him, including oaths and confessions of brotherly love. That Pullo didn’t hit him sooner, or threw the first punch was impressive. (Personally I wouldn’t be so well behaved in a similar situation. ;P)
But it also shows very cleary something very evident in this episode; how much Pullo has changed. The events running up to and in the arena altered him, and season two Pullo is a much quieter and calmer man than he was in season one. The ironic thing is that this is very evident to the viewer, but since he is drowned in grief it is perhaps not so evident to Vorenus. So when Pullo acts like the voice of reason it goes against everything Vorenus has been used to. This is after all Titus Pullo – who stole the cart of Gold, who worked as a hired killer for the mob and who used to sleep dead drunk on the Vorenii stairs.
As for the fight it self, I had been wilfully spoiled it, so I expected it. What I didn’t expect was how hard it was to watch – how painful to see these two best friends literary at each others throats. And the scene with Vorenus crying on the floor just about killed me. I felt truly sorry for Pullo yes, but my heart broke for Vorenus. Especially if seen in contrast to the Vorenus of season one; the man who was always so proper and well presented, so in control - and now he is sobbing uncontrollably on the floor. It was simply heart wrenching.
This was also the first time this season that I actually felt sad for Atia. There were two scenes that did it – the first being her sitting on the bed with a blank stare, and the second was shen she was crying and drinking in the bath.
This is Atia! Who was filled with life and snappy comments, and now there was nothing - it was as if all life was drained from her. When Jocasta was being annoying I expected a sharp Atia-reply, but instead she mumble something vaguely snobbish and left. So she might say her son is dead and that she has no son, but I feel the loss of Octavian is breaking her. No matter how horrid Atia can be there was never any doubt that she loved her children.
I felt there was a certain parallel between her and Vorenus in that they both deny the people close to them (a son or a brother), and that decision is destroying them.
A few assorted thoughts:
I loved the sneaky Cicero in this episode. I did not like him much in season one, but in S2 he has been wonderful.
I also liked Agrippa very much. He did look like a younger, more fighting version of Sam Gamgee - but then again Sam has always been my favorite hobbit. I just really like how he entered the Julii household all proud an soldiery, and then he took one look at Octavia and became a stuttering young man with a crush. Hee. I think that appealed to my inner romantic.
And yet - she will end up marrying Marc Antony, so all will not end well.
When Pullo was told that Antony had asked for Vorenus especially my blood ran cold. I do not trust Antony at all, and considering Antony’s treatment of Vorenus in "Son of Hades" this is doubled in Vorenus’ case.
Thankfully after all this heartbreak they chose to end the episode with Pullo riding to find his brother. (For he was riding towards Vorenus right? Not the children? I’m a little confused)
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Date: 2007-01-29 09:49 pm (UTC)Yes, because he knew where Vorenus was, but he didn’t know where the children were. (And I suppose only Vorenus can say that “these are my children, wrongfully sold into slavery” and get them back.) Also, in the previews, Pullo encounters Octavian at Mutina so he must have ridden towards Vorenus in Antony’s army.
You know, I did feel really sorry for Vorenus in the end when he was sobbing on the floor, but my heartbreak was a little tempered by thinking that he brought this part of his misery on himself, by rejecting Pullo’s love and loyalty that was freely offered to him. I kind of felt worse for Pullo – especially when he swore on his mother and Vorenus totally didn’t believe him. *sniff* We know how much Pullo love his mum! I’m so glad Eirene stuck with him.
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Date: 2007-01-29 10:01 pm (UTC)Yay! Good to know. I'm without Previews, so information like this is lost to me.
especially when he swore on his mother and Vorenus totally didn’t believe him. *sniff*
Yes! - that got me so mad as well. And not only on his mother, but on his mother's bones! Considering that, as far as we know, this is all the family Pullo has he basically swore on the honor of his house and family. To reject that was an awful, awful move by Vorenus.
Still - I cannot shake the feeling that Vorenus before his descend into madness would have understood the seriousness in Pullo's oath, and that makes it even more painful that he now rejects it.
Eirene was love this episode. All her little comments, and the way she supported Pullo after the fight (and she was incredibly tiny in comparison).
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Date: 2007-01-29 10:05 pm (UTC)Yeah, that was just CRUEL. And it made me really, really not like Vorenus, even allowing for all his emotional distress at the moment. I mean, OK, so remember when Pullo was ready to die? He wasn't so intent on taking the rest of the world down with him as Vorenus is.
I also think Vorenus's reaction makes it even more obvious that Pullo chose the right course of action in killing off Evander when he did. I love that he kept trying to get through to Vorenus and tell him that Niobe loved him.
All her little comments, and the way she supported Pullo after the fight (and she was incredibly tiny in comparison).
I SO WANT TO WRITE EIRENE FIC. I'm just a little afraid to try, though.
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Date: 2007-01-29 10:15 pm (UTC)I love that he kept trying to get through to Vorenus and tell him that Niobe loved him.
yes - and that indirectly to tell Vorenus that even if a person has flaws they can still love deeply and truly. And be worthy of love in return - which has so many layers and can also reflect back Vorenus himself, who seems to believe himself worthy of nothing but scorn.
I think shades of gray are something Vorenus has trouble grasping. He is very either or person. First he was a perfect soldier, and an upstanding citizen - and now that he is not, he will be the scariest, craziest mob-boss there is. No such things as middle ground in the Vorenii household.
I SO WANT TO WRITE EIRENE FIC
DO IT! DO IT! I'd love to read Eirene fic from you, and her view on things would be so interesting! :D
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Date: 2007-01-29 10:30 pm (UTC)Oh, this is a very beautiful idea - I agree, I think Pullo is trying hard to tell Vorenus that he IS worthy of love - Niobe loved him, Pullo loves him. And Vorenus can't accept that, because he believes himself cursed. Or believes that only a whore like Niobe and a traitor like Pullo CAN love him.
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Date: 2007-01-30 05:28 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-01-30 09:31 am (UTC)This is what I forgotten to mention - that IMHO this disagreement in front of Memmio contributed to the future events. I know it is not like in army, but it seems to be even worse in a case of mafia ( I remmeber in "Godfather" Sonny was disagreeing with Vito Corleone and that ultimately cased the gang war. I know Sonny was a trouble-maker, but at the end it weren't his qualities, but the rift inside the family was the point that made it weaker.)
When Pullo was told that Antony had asked for Vorenus especially my blood ran cold. I do not trust Antony at all, and considering Antony’s treatment of Vorenus in "Son of Hades" this is doubled in Vorenus’ case.
There is definitely something very dark in MArk Antony's treatment of Vorenus, and I am also not happy that he has chosen him for a "pet".
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Date: 2007-01-30 12:24 pm (UTC)Well, that's what Vorenus accuses Pullo of - but if you watch Memmio and Carbo, they're not listening to Vorenus at all ANYWAY. You can tell that Memmio is just telling Vorenus what they're going to do and not actually asking for permission (and certainly Carbo is not asking for permission) right from the beginning. I think Pullo is right when he says that EVERYONE is in the wrong in this situation - and Vorenus of course does not actually want to stop the war at all, he wants to provoke it and die in it.
Also, I'm sorry but I really dislike Vorenus for the way he treats Pullo like an inferior in these scenes - Pullo calls him "brother" but for Vorenus it seems very much that he is the "master". This makes me quite angry because this is before Pullo says anything about Evander - this is not Vorenus, crazed with grief, throwing out wild accusations, this is how he really feels about Pullo, that they are not really equals. And Pullo is right - they are not in the legion now and Lucius is fooling himself with his "good of the Republic" nonsense that he's saying now. They're part of the criminal underworld and it has different rules from the military, which Vorenus, of course, doesn't recognize at all.
Heh! I did love this episode though. I think this amount of cruelty from Vorenus was necessary to drive Pullo away - he had to hurt Pullo so much to make him leave, because otherwise it wouldn't happen. And ... I actually think Vorenus is somewhat calculated in his accusations because he says very softly to Pullo when they hug "keeping me alive, eh?" And then AFTER this he provokes Pullo into the real fight that ends up with Pullo leaving - he doesn't WANT to be kept alive any more and if he gets rid of Pullo (one way or another!) then it will be over.
I'm dying for the next episode - I want to know what happens to Vorenus when he realizes his children ARE alive and that he does have something to live for. EEEEEEEE!!!
There is definitely something very dark in MArk Antony's treatment of Vorenus
This is, to me, an encapsulation of the patron/client relationship - Romans always had "clients" (the richer and more powerful you were, the more clients you had) who depended on you for favors and who would, in turn, do your bidding. And Vorenus and Antony DEFINITELY have this relationship - where Antony sees a willing tool and Vorenus sees a man whom he does not care for at all, but to whom he is bound by custom and honor.
I think Pullo's bond to Octavian is a little bit different - in some ways, they have been more like co-conspirators than like patron/client although Pullo calls him "master." I'm curious to see how that changes with a grown-up and much more powerful Octavian.
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Date: 2007-01-30 03:14 pm (UTC)Also, I'm sorry but I really dislike Vorenus for the way he treats Pullo like an inferior in these scenes
Yes, I also don’t like Vorenus’ actions in this and followings scene. And Pullo is right in saying that Vorenus wants to die. But when I try to put my feelings aside about this situation (it is a little difficult because it is such an emotional scene), I think actually the whole thing may be orchestrated by Memmio. I was thinking and remembered the first episode (I think I am correct, but I could be wrong) that it was him who killed Erastes’ men. He was probably looking for a leadership in Aventine. And this thing with the boy could have been just orchestrated in a way to cause a rift between Pullo and Vorenus. And if I am right about this, Memmio would have found another excuse, it sort of was no win situation.
Also, I'm sorry but I really dislike Vorenus for the way he treats Pullo like an inferior in these scenes - Pullo calls him "brother" but for Vorenus it seems very much that he is the "master". This makes me quite angry because this is before Pullo says anything about Evander
You see, I dislike his actions here as well, but for one thing it is probably the time for them to find an equal footage and for Vorenus to shake himself up. Secondary, historically it was sadly the truth – Pullo was in an inferior position to start with. In the first episode of season 1 he would have been executed if not for the fact that Vorenus took him to find the Eagle . And it was Vorenus who ordered execution, and only for being drunk during the battle, this shows the ways of Roman army and the type of power Vorenus was used to. But the main factor is I think that Vorenus wants to drive Pullo away,.
Heh! I did love this episode though. I think this amount of cruelty from Vorenus was necessary to drive Pullo away - he had to hurt Pullo so much to make him leave, because otherwise it wouldn't happen. And ... I actually think Vorenus is somewhat calculated in his accusations because he says very softly to Pullo when they hug "keeping me alive, eh?"
I know, this is what I think happened – Vorenus wanted Pullo out of there before the gang war strikes, consciously or unconsciously. I still believe that the "depressed" part of him believed in things about Niobe, but when he will feel better he will realize how crazy it all was.
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Date: 2007-01-30 03:51 pm (UTC)Oh, yes, I totally agree - but the situation has completely changed, which Pullo sees, but which Vorenus doesn't. Pullo even says "we're not in the legions" but Vorenus doesn't HEAR that.
I still believe that the "depressed" part of him believed in things about Niobe
I have a different theory (which I just posted in my LJ) based on a conversation that
no subject
Date: 2007-01-30 03:54 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-01-30 04:26 pm (UTC)Yes, I think this is true and a part of the same thing, of depression. It is how it all could have worked in his brain, I don't see a contradiction there.
As for a fight, I was very afraid Pullo will stangle Vorenus at one point and it totally looked like he is ready to do it. I am not taking sides here - I think it was an ugly and murderous fight on the both sides.
Oh, yes, I totally agree - but the situation has completely changed, which Pullo sees, but which Vorenus doesn't. Pullo even says "we're not in the legions" but Vorenus doesn't HEAR that.
You see, I remembered one thing whilst I was driving to school (yep, I think about these things whilst driving), that it wasn't only in the legions. Not long ago Pullo killed Eurene's guy and Vorenus told him to go from his house, remember? And then it was Vorenus who actually saved Pullo in the gladiator's rink. I know that Pullo has changed, but it wasn't long ago. Again, I am not taking Vorenus' side, I just try to explain it in my brain.
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Date: 2007-01-30 04:44 pm (UTC)Actually, I didn't think it was nearly as murderous as the Antony-Octavian fight - I believed those two would kill each other, but here, aside from that one moment when Vorenus picks up the candelabra or whatever it is (and immediately drops it and of course, I think is also horrified that he came so close to doing that) I didn't ever believe these two wanted to kill each other. (Yes, Pullo was definitely trying to cut off Vorenus's air, but I think he wasn't going to kill him, just make him pass out so the fight would stop.)
Yes, Pullo owes Vorenus his life but Vorenus owes Pullo HIS life as well - and Pullo is very well aware of his obligation but Vorenus seemingly completely ignores HIS when he questions what it is that Pullo has ever done for him. So ... I feel there is still a big structural imbalance in this friendship.
BUT I think that Pullo is very well aware of how much he owes to Vorenus and, as he says, he loves Vorenus and so he has already forgiven Vorenus by the time he comes back from Massilia. Plus, helping to find Vorenus's children surely will cancel out Vorenus rescuing him from death in the gladiators' rink. So maybe after all of this, they can approach each other more as equals and their friendship will really be about brotherhood.
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Date: 2007-01-30 04:50 pm (UTC)And on a different level I must take my hat of to Kevin McKidd and Ray Stevenson who acted the hell out of that scene.
two men who love each other so much (non-sexually - I don't see any evidence of anything else
I agree. Vorenus and Pullo are just friends and brothers. They are too caught up with the women in their lives for me to see them as anything else.
And yes, I hope that next episode will be a little lighter and more hopeful. Though I do worry about Vorenus as long as he is under Antony's command.
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Date: 2007-01-30 05:34 pm (UTC)Oh yes - I think it is very calculated. The look in his eyes when he says that is simply spine chilling. There is also the fact that he starts the conversation by calling Pullo "brother". Now Pullo calls him "brother" all the time, but for Vorenus this is unusual. Then he goes on to tell Pullo that all is forgiven, all is well - and this obviously takes Pullo by surprise. He hadn't expected this reaction from Vorenus.
All this taken together makes me suspect that Vorenus was trying to find out where Pullo stands, and what his plans are.
re: Antony and Vorenus. I agree that this is a very good example of the patron/client relationship - even if Antony's actions and words have a tendency to drag them to a dark and twisted place.
There is also something very sad and bitterly ironic that Vorenus, who used to believe in the Republic and the Roman values, now finds himself bound by a somewhat twisted form of the patron/client relationship.
I'm very much looking forward to see how the Pullo and Octavian relationship turns out. I noticed Agrippa kept referring to him as Caesar, which indicates that there have been some changes yes. But unlike Vorenus Pullo has never expected his leaders to be clean and virtuous. So a more darker Octavian might not bother Pullo that much.
It could also be said that by assisting Octavian in torturing Evander, pulo has already seen a darker side of Octavian than most people.
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Date: 2007-01-30 05:42 pm (UTC)I think you have a very valid point here - but I've also started to think that it wasn't so much Pullo objecting to what Vorenus said, as how Vorenus' acted to the objecting. Had Vorenus' reaction been more of: "Hmm...yes..what my brother says here is a good idea" they would have still presented a united front. In fact a front that could be interpreted as stronger and more flexible - since two heads usually think better than one.
There is definitely something very dark in MArk Antony's treatment of Vorenus,
As
Compare that with Caesar who seemed to prefer to maneuver and manipulate people, and only used a show of force when he had to.
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Date: 2007-01-30 08:00 pm (UTC)So Pullo has experience that even when things were at their darkest and he was a condemned criminal people loved him, and cared for him.
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Date: 2007-01-30 10:16 pm (UTC)Actually, I confess I totally missed this bit the first time round, I think I was watching it in a very scared state and I thought that Pullo was beating Vorenus more then the other way round, but this is totally subjective, I think.
So ... I feel there is still a big structural imbalance in this friendship
This structural imbalance was there from the season 1. And it is about time that it was shifted. And to be honest, Pullo has only started to change at the end of the season 1 (it is not like I liked him less in season 1 though, I like my fictional characters despite their shortcomings). All the things he did for Vorenus (if we don't count Evander guy) he done in the period when Vorenus was in his gloom, and this is again one of the things people in depression do, they don't notice others around them. And it is so typical of perfectionist like Vorenus to fall into depression.
So maybe after all of this, they can approach each other more as equals and their friendship will really be about brotherhood.
I so hope this will happen. Losing Pullo is probably the only thing that can snap Vorenus out of his gloom.
no subject
Date: 2007-01-30 10:30 pm (UTC)This makes very good sense to me. I think Vorenus is depressed, and his view of the world is not the most stable. I also don't think he has grasped, or is able to grasp, the changes in people around him. He is too caught up in his own private hell.
Basically he is so out of it that he hasn't noticed that Pullo has changed as greatly as he has.
Consider when Pullo comes back in "Passover" - he calls Vorenus brother, but Vorenus answers with "legionnaire Pullo etc." It shows that Vorenus is still stuck in the old ways of thinking.In many ways he is still stuck in the past - maybe the present is to horrible for him to fully fathom?
Not that I would excuse his actions - the things he says and does to Pullo are horrible. But I think it goes a long way to explain them.
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Date: 2007-01-31 01:38 am (UTC)Oh, I totally agree - I posted about this today, about how it's the combination of the way in which Lucius's love saves him from death in the arena, and Eirene gives him mercy and grace that is in answer to his prayer that she knows he's sorry for what he did - these are no less life-changing events for HIM than losing Niobe and his children are for Vorenus. They are just catalysts for a better kind of change (although I also think there was always a little more to Pullo than the "cheerful brutish" fellow we met early on :P)
And as
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Date: 2007-01-31 03:26 pm (UTC)I think he started down that dark road a very, very long time ago - when he first went to Antony it was certainly to support his family. But then, he let himself be seduced by Caesar's promise of a glittering future and he let himself be corrupted (and corrupted others, like Mascius :P) And because he judges himself more harshly than anyone else judges him, Vorenus already knows this about himself.
I've always felt that the ending of "The Spoils" was no less a moment of redemption for Vorenus than for Pullo - they had both sunk very low in different ways and for different reasons.
But I DO think we are going to see that Pullo and Vorenus fight for different leaders because their rift has come about for reasons unrelated to Octavian and Antony - how much more tragic and ironic if their bonds of brotherhood are even stronger and now they're fighting against each other? *sniff*
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Date: 2007-01-31 04:20 pm (UTC)*sniff* And he's trying so hard to make Vorenus understand that this is true for him too and Vorenus won't listen because he's so pig-headed.
But seriously, I think Pullo has a really forgiving heart and obviously even by the end of this episode, he wasn't holding anything against Vorenus - the sheer joy he took in knowing Vorenus's children were alive was lovely. So I think between Pullo's good nature and Vorenus's probably immense gratitude that his daughters are alive, and his rational understanding of all that Pullo has done for him, I think they will be OK as far as their relationship goes. After all, they have to be friends so they can experience the full pain of civil war and different sides!
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Date: 2007-01-31 08:08 pm (UTC)*Sob!* yes, you are probably right. I suspect this show is going to rip out my heart and crush it to little pieces. Now, by all means I love them for being able to make me care SO MUCH about the civil war, and how they manage to show the tragedy of brother against brother.
On the other hand damn them for making me so emotionally invested!
( even if the truth is I rather like it - in a cathartic kind of way)
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Date: 2007-01-31 09:06 pm (UTC)Yes. I think about the middle of last season it really started to be less a fascinating intellectual game and much more about my emotional attachment to certain characters - perhaps as early as Pharsalus, when I felt so awful for Pompey, but definitely by the time we get to "Utica" and "Triumph" when Pullo's loneliness and sense of dispossession are so palpable. And by the time we got to "The Spoils" (when I really wasn't sure if he would survive the gladiatorial ring), I was totally weeping for him, and things have not let up since.
It was like we'd had this big, bluff hearty guy, and I'd always liked him, but suddenly, I saw something much more there and *poof* love. And Vorenus - well, I had always liked him as well, but then suddenly, when he throws caution to the wind and rescues Pullo and then his world comes crashing down around him ... it meant SO much more.